Tao of Heaven Liberalism Discussion Series
Heaven Tea Talk Sixty: The Tao Reigns Supreme in the World. What Is Wrong with “the King Reigns Supreme in the World?”
Liu Jun Ning
Translated By: Selene Cong
Confucius: Your Tao Te Ching is filled with great quotes. In this chapter, we find “governing a great state is like cooking a small fish.” This quote has been used numerous times by men at home and abroad, including Former President Reagan of the United States.
Lao Tzu: This quote has indeed been used by many people, but how many countries really succeeded in doing so? I care not about the number of times it is quoted by others, but the degree of disturbance on the people, caused by the power of the state. The former is insubstantial while the latter is substantial. Perhaps, the more frequently my words are quoted, the more applicable it is true for many countries that ruling a great state is like cooking a small fish. I did not mean that the government should not do anything but that the government should do less to achieve results through wu-wei. I am not an anarchist. I support a “small government.” Reagan agrees with my “governing a great country is like cooking a small fish.” He has a saying that I rather enjoy, too, “government isn’t the solution, it’s the problem.” He and I see eye to eye on this subject. I am vehemently against the idea of an omnipotent government or seeking solutions to all problems from the government.
Confucius: I understand this theory. Governing a great country is indeed like cooking a small fish. If the turning and stirring of the fish were too frequent, the fish would become pulp. At the same time, the government must not be completely inactive, or the fish would be burnt. Furthermore, the people always have great expectations in the government.
Lao Tzu: I agree with the Western philosophical belief that the state is a necessary evil. Marx not only agrees with this belief, he even ventures to suggest abolishing the state. I am not that extreme. However, I have always worried about the danger of the force controlled by the state; the state might do great evil in the name of doing great good. When confronting the governmental machines of aggression, the fate of a man is indeed like a small fish in the pan, delicate and fragile! I am concerned with how to preserve the life of the individual so that men may avoid the harm of the “great works” of an aggressive government, and that men may live as they wish. Therefore, one is never too alert in monitoring the political machine of aggression’s desires for “great works.”
Confucius: I personally yearn for a political scene of a benevolent sage king “reigning supreme in the world.” If there were a kind and wise supreme ruler, who understands the wishes of the citizens, acts benevolently, and protects the people, wouldn’t things cease to be so complicated? Neither would we need to worry so much; wouldn’t it be nice to have the time to read poetries and listen to music?
Lao Tzu: I have always disliked the idea of “the king reigns supreme in the world.” You expect a benevolent absolute ruler. This idea is quite popular among the scholars of China today. But, haven’t you ever noticed that benevolence and absolutism are fundamentally opposite and incomparable with each other? The typical result of pursuing both ends is the total absence of benevolence-less with prevailing absolutism. The idea of having a supreme ruler may offer one an image of greatness but what is hidden behind him is a monstrous national machine of violence and aggression. It is the only way for the ruler to demonstrate his unrivaled power. This is the political logic of using force and aggression. The result usually is the ruler uses his power to replace the Tao of Heaven with his desires, replace the order of the Tao of Heaven with orders designed by men, action for wu-wei, use ambition to revise the world, power to snuff out freedom, and to enslave the people with goals of a fabricated utopia.
The political scene that I dream of is the Tao reigning supreme in the world. Those who are in power should rule by wu-wei, and not replace the Tao of Heaven with their will; they should let the Tao of Heaven exist as it is so that they may govern the world in the order of the Tao of Heaven. The way to measure the value of a system is to see the degree of power this particular system permits the rulers to gather for “great endeavors;” the greater level of power the system permits, the worse it is. The less room there is for the rulers to maneuver, the better the system is. If the rulers cannot embark on great ventures, the chances of disasters caused by men would be reduced, and its damages limited. Historically, nine out of ten disasters are caused by men.
Confucius: You are so right; a stringent government is more harmful than a tiger and misfortunes caused by men are greater than the ones by tigers.
Lao Tzu: Although we are talking about man-made misfortune, not everybody is capable of causing earth-shattering disasters. The disasters (men-made) that are greater than natural disasters can always be credited to a small minority, i.e., a minority that controls enormous powers.
Confucius: Yes, yes. I am not as watchful as I should be of the possible dangers associated with these men in power; I even place great hopes in them. In retrospect, it was quite wrong. We should place our hopes in the Tao of Heaven, instead of the rulers. Perhaps it is due to my lack of understanding for the wonders of the Tao of Heaven. You said in this chapter that if the Tao reigns supreme in the world, not only will the men of power not dare to harm the people, but the evil spirits and demons also will not harm the people. How should we understand this?
Lao Tzu: A few days ago, a fellow American Taoist in Heaven sent me a book. This book compiles chapters of similarity from both the Bible and the Tao Te Ching. I looked into it and there are indeed many similarities. That book used a story from the Bible to prove that when the Tao reigns supreme in the world, demons would cease harming people. *Christian philosophy sees evil as the absence of the good. This is the same as my belief. When the Tao of Heaven is concealed by a tyrant, demons appear and God will punish those who act against the Tao of Heaven. This demon will inhabit the body of the tyrant and the value system that promotes evil, so that it may seduce, incite, and mislead the ignorant mass to oppose the Tao of Heaven.
Confucius: Then why don’t we annihilate all evils by forbidding cultic teachings through harsh laws, like how I punished Shao Zheng Mou? Wouldn’t the problem be solved if we exterminate all evil men and evil thoughts?
Lao Tzu: You are oversimplifying the problem. The root of the problem is not evil; the root is the betrayal of the Tao of Heaven. Besides, due to the eternal, volatile emptiness that exists in human nature, evil matters may enter into the human mind easily. You cannot exterminate all men who have any association with evil. I believe that evil things are not to be feared. The key is to return to the Tao of Heaven. When a political system based on the Tao of Heaven is established, demons can no longer do evil or harm people. The only way to destroy the platform for their activity is through the promotion of the power of the Tao of Heaven. People will no longer go astray or oppose the Tao of Heaven, and Heaven will cease to punish them. Since we cannot uproot evil, we may permit this kind of people, ideas, and organizations to exist legally as long as they are not given the opportunity to cause chaos and evil.
Confucius: Your method is indeed wiser than mine. Perhaps, because of the Dong Zhong Shu’s support, my influence has been greater than yours in China. But I have discovered in the West, especially the U.S., my influence cannot match yours. Perhaps I still have some influence on the Chinese literary circle, but it seems more Westerners are greatly influenced by you. An American neo-Confucianist told me that there are approximately forty thousand books on Amazon.com containing the word Tao, and if we include those found under Dao, there are over fifty thousand. However, if we look under Ren or Jen, there is barely any. He was quite disappointed when he told me. I told him that it was quite normal. Lao Tzu is number one in the world. How could I compare to him? Besides, you are my teacher, too. You have enlightened me on many occasions. I am not the slightest envious of your reputation abroad. In contrast, I am quite ashamed. Had you been the ultimate sage teacher of China, and that China had followed your political philosophy on the Tao of Heaven, the greatest country in the world would perhaps not have been the United States.
Lao Tzu: My political philosophy of the Tao of Heaven was not designed for China to compete for greatness in the world. Back then, there was not even the concept of China, and North America was still uncivilized. I was concerned with the welfare of every ordinary person of this land. Without the welfare of the individual, the power of the state becomes very dangerous. Although I had premonitions long ago, I still could not help to suffer watching China become a batch of fish pulp numerous times in history. Of course, even if the welfare of the Chinese is guaranteed in the future, and that China provides individual freedom and national prosperity, it still would not be my merit. It is the merit of the Tao of Heaven. Eh! How long must we wait for that day?
Look, the United States established a constitutional government and a political order based on natural laws (that is the name of the Tao of Heaven in their country), and governs the state through this system, so that all kinds of demons and cults may exist freely in society while unable to succeed. After witnessing the enduring qualities of this constitutional system, I am even more firmly convinced that the Tao of Heaven will eventually guide the entire humanity. Therefore, it is no surprise that many of the classical liberal politicians and thinkers of the United States agree with my political philosophy.
Tao of Heaven Chapter Sixty:
Governing a great state is like cooking small fish.
Let the kingdom be governed according to the Tao, and the manes of
the departed will not manifest their spiritual energy. It is not that
those manes have not that spiritual energy, but it will not be
employed to hurt men. It is not that it could not hurt men, but
neither does the ruling sage hurt them.
When these two do not injuriously affect each other, their good
influences converge in the virtue (of the Tao). (J. Legge)
Governing a great country is like frying a delicate small fish. They require caution. Governing the world with the Tao of Heaven will prevent the demons from causing troubles; it is not that the demons are powerless but that even if they were to occasionally interfere, they can no longer harm the people. When the Tao of Heaven reigns supreme in the world, the demons won’t harm humans, the gods will cease to punish humans, and the rulers will stop harming the people. When everybody stops harming each other, the greatest beneficiaries are the citizens.
* Mark 1:21-26 (New International Version)
21They went to Capernaum, and when the Sabbath came, Jesus went into the synagogue and began to teach.
22The people were amazed at his teaching, because he taught them as one who had authority, not as the teachers of the law.
23Just then a man in their synagogue who was possessed by an evil[e] spirit cried out,
24"What do you want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are—the Holy One of God!"
25"Be quiet!" said Jesus sternly. "Come out of him!"
26The evil spirit shook the man violently and came out of him with a shriek.
27The people were all so amazed that they asked each other, "What is this? A new teaching—and with authority! He even gives orders to evil spirits and they obey him." 28News about him spread quickly over the whole region of Galilee.
